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12/23/2012 6:00:00 AM
Kingman Letter: Religious wishful thinking

Regarding your front-page story, "GOP group revisits Intelligent Design," in flat-out contradiction to the ignorant assertion that "the universe and the world is so complex that it couldn't have evolved by chance and that a greater power had a hand in its making," the theory of evolution does not assert that chance alone is the driving force of evolution.

In fact, the primary force in evolution, natural selection, is an anti-chance process! Contrary to Miller's religiously driven wishful thinking-based assertion that "evolution has no scientific basis," the fact is that the theory of evolution is the scientific base of all of modern biological science.

Indeed, it is Miller's religious creationist fantasy that "has no scientific basis!"

Leon Albert

Kingman


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Reader Comments

Posted: Monday, January 7, 2013
Article comment by: pl .....

@Dr. Hurd.....I spent considerable time as a young boy devouring university-level books and research materiel in the study of my Jewish uncle, who was Chairman of a major university science department. My uncle definitely believed in God and did not see a conflict with science. It may be that various religious personalities have disappointed you. Join the club. This could be a very long posting on this point. Nonetheless, it dawned upon me some time ago that we all die. Life is short, and where is the meaning without a Creator Who has purpose in His creation? Once that principle is embraced, other considerations come to mind - a Creator capable of placing hundreds of billions of stars in a single galaxy.....etc. may say something like what you'll find in the Bible - "My ways are not your ways, and my thoughts are not your thoughts. For as the stars for height above the earth, my ways and thoughts are high above your ways and thoughts." I see nothing illogical or magical in that assertion. I would find it illogical to make a determination regarding these matters based, even in part, upon the quirks and quacks which, unfortunately, religion at times has to offer.

Posted: Friday, January 4, 2013
Article comment by: Dr. GS Hurd

Ms. Athens has stooped to equating anyone that exposes her, or David Barton's errors with Satanists. Her Jefferson quote used below is a good example. By comparing her citation of a 1904 book with David Barton's screed, "The Founders views on Creation and Evolution," I noted the identical reference to "The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Andrew A. Lipscomb, editor (Washington, D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XV, pp. 426-427, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823. She is merely copying from Barton's website. Rather than "reading the Original Documents" as she insists, she isn't doing any original reading of original texts.

I have read the original Jefferson letter to Adams. In it, he repudiated the notion of ever joining Adams as a Calvinist Protestant. He strongly rejected Trinitarian dogma. He equates the immaculate conception to the Minerva myth, and refers to Jesus as a "venerated reformer," not a redeemer. Here is the URL for the letter, which is in the Library of Congress: http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.mss/mtj.mtjbib024623

If this sort of anti-reality proselytizing is not countered, American will become a failed experiment in democracy.


Posted: Thursday, January 3, 2013
Article comment by: Donna Wickerd

Em Lee: Roger Bacon invented the scientific method that we use today, as a way to test his theories. It was in response to the church insisting that only revelation from God could provide "truth'. So you could say that it was created DESPITE god, not because of god!

Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2013
Article comment by: pl .....

@Dr. Hurd.....Now THIS is a man whose books I intend to thoroughly plumb. Dr. Hazel clearly appears to be a versatile researcher and author, who embraces some controversies leveled against scientists in an entertaining and informative manner.

Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2013
Article comment by: Dr. GS Hurd

@PL,

There are three strands to origin of life research How did it happen here? (abiogenesis), How might it happen anywhere?(astrobiology), and How might we do it in the laboratory today (or soon)? (synthetic life).

A book more directed to the first strand is Robert M. Hazen's, 2005 "Gen-e-sis" (Washington DC: Joseph Henry Press). (This isn't a recommendation- I think Hazen's book isn't as good as his research papers). Deamer's book I have already mentioned is more generally focused including astrobiology, and Luigi's work is strongly leaning to the synthetic life efforts.

A good (and free) way to get information on the astrobiology strand is NASA's Program in Astrobiology website: https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/


Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2013
Article comment by: Nice Chuckle

@Linda

Barton's publisher pulled the book due to the lies told in it. Period. They said as much. No matter how much you like to say otherwise....it just is not true.


Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2013
Article comment by: Linda Athens

Nice Chuckle:

The truth about Thomas Nelson pulling Barton's book. It's still available because a much larger publisher/diistributor jumped on the chance to put it out. God took what Satan meant for evil and turned it around.

Nelson never one time went to Barton with a complaint about anything in the book - had they, he would have provided them extensive original source material. Instead, they simply said they had "lost confidence'" and sent him an e-mail they had pulled it. First he had heard of it. They will lose a lot of business undoubtedly over this.

Their real problem - the lies about Jefferson are now so imbedded in our psyche, when the truth hits, atheists/libs complain. Nelson folded under their complaints without even finding out the truth. Barton doesn't fold. If he ever finds errors of his own, HE is the first to point it out and correct it.

The Jefferson lies have been around for decades now - that he fathered a baby by a black slave, was a deist, etc. America hating libs eat it up. And when Barton digs out the truth, satan attacks, using the LOW INFORMATION people in our society - always all willing to keep the lies going.

Barton is one of the finest people America has produced. AGAIN, SO YOU UNDERSTAND - HAD NELSON CONTACTED BARTON WITH ANY PROBLEM AREAS, HE WOULD HAVE SUPPLIED THEM WITH THOROUGH AND EXTENSIVE HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION.

Stay with me here now. That is something OTHERS do not provide because they all quote each other rather than ORIGINAL HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION. Hurd on here somewhere mentioned two people who quote each other. That is NOT ORIGINAL HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION.

With his time short, ridding the world of Christianity is his goal.


Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2013
Article comment by: PL .....

@Dr. Hurd....Please note that my comments were based upon researching peer reviews of Deamer's and Luisi's works, not upon my personal readings. Your comments were informative and I wish to state that the brutal combat at less-worthy discussion threads here at the Miner appears to have spilled over a bit into this particular conversation. Thank you for your response, and it motivates me to come to the next debate over this subject with relevant primary source readings. While I share some beliefs with those whom you may oppose on ideological grounds, many of those folks would be quite aghast to learn of those beliefs which I hold quite apart from their presumptions.

Posted: Monday, December 31, 2012
Article comment by: Dr. GS Hurd

@Anson's Nephew The use of a "quote" from Ben Franklin to support fundamentalism is a joke, surely.

I had to note here before I go fishing, that Charles Darwin's grandfathers, Erasmus Darwin, and Josiah Wedgwood were not only personal friends of Franklin's, but they provided significant financial support to him, and the American Revolution. I think you will like,

Desdmond, Adrian and James Moore
2009 “Darwin’s Sacred Cause” New York: Houghton Mifflin Harcourt


Posted: Monday, December 31, 2012
Article comment by: Dr. GS Hurd

@PL, I agree that 300 word snippets make a serious discussion difficult, particularly of a technical nature.

I obviously don't agree with your criticism of Deamer's recent book. I recommended it because it is accessible to a reader who is not a chemist. And, if you read it, you will see that Deamer gives adequate attention to open questions in abiogenesis research. Pier Luigi Luigi's recent book, "The Emergence of Life: From Chemical Origins to Synthetic Biology" is great, but beyond the first chapters assumes a bit more background knowledge than Deamer does. Also, Luigi's book is much more expensive. His first chapter on the absurdity of creationism is very well written. Deamer left that issue to his short Epilogue, reserving the main text for science.

I'll finish this comment by noting that Luigi has expressed great respect for Deamer's work, and Deamer is full of praise for Luigi's research as well as appreciation for his incorporation of the arts with the sciences.

Now I am going fishing for the rest of the day, and tomorrow.


Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2012
Article comment by: Nice Chuckle

@Linda

"On your continuing rant that David Barton presents false material in spite of the fact he has the largest collection of original letters, etc from our Founding era and actual Founders anywhere, the fact you have read NOTHING actually by him but simply quote no nothing liberals who hate him, you might find this story interesting."

LOL, really?

Barton's OWN publisher took his last book off the shelves due to the lies in it. Enough said.


Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2012
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

@ Linda Athens

Still defending the charlatan and fraud David Barton I see. Here is evidence of the lying crap he put out through his self-published screed (because no legitimate publisher would touch his garbage).

The following are taken from Barton’s own Wallbuilder site published – by Barton – as “Questionable Quotes” with parenthetical comments directly from Barton/Wallbuilders,

Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extend, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian. --The Supreme Court in Holy Trinity (false)

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." --James Madison (false)

I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens. --Thomas Jefferson (questionable)

America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.--Alexis de Toqueville, ‘Democracy in America’ (false, definitely not in the book).”

So from the charlatans own web site there is the proof that he lied. Many of those quotations he admits are groundless. Most were in Barton's 1989 book, The Myth of Separation. Barton so loved one quote supposedly uttered by Benjamin Franklin that it was included in a biographical sketch WallBuilders (owned by Barton) sells, saying it "fully sums up what David believes and teaches."

Barton now admits the quote is "false" and recommends people not use it.

W/c 295


Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2012
Article comment by: pl .....

@Dr. Hurd - the Kingman Daily Miner - due to content limitations and cultural setting - isn't the rarest atmosphere around for weighing in deeply on a subject like this. But if you have a moment.....among the mixed reviews of Professor Deemer's work comes one prescient observation - that scientists often are good at experimentation, but not so proficient as theoreticians. Deemer's approach seems to be at the undergraduate level (at best). Pier Lujigi Luisi's work is better, and in terms of the chemistry aspect of autopoiesis, he acknowledges formidable issues (problems). As for your statement, "The origin of life is logically separate from evolutionary theory" , I should think this to be a matter of opinion. And you needn't patronise me on the subject.

Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2012
Article comment by: our own worst enemy Mr. C,

The subjects of politics and religion seem to bring forth the best and the worst in all of us. Let me say, no one should ever feel sorry for me, because I happen to believe in something greater then myself.

Since the bible was written by man, it's not really hard to understand the reasons behind some men/women skepticism. The point I was trying to make between religion and science as I see it, they Parallel each other much more then anyone would care to acknowledge.

Albert Eisenstein said this, "SCIENCE WITHOUT RELIGION IS LAME, RELIGION WITHOUT SCIENCE IS BLIND" As I see it, religion can learn from science, at the sane time, science has already given much back to religion, which in turn, have clearly support the Bible.


Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2012
Article comment by: Uncle Anson

I find debate a wondrous activity when conducted in an intelligent forum where opinions and theory may be exchanged openly without threat of verbal retribution or insult. I would think that there was a degree of debate recorded in many of these writings being quoted. It is quite improbable that anyone debating over these words now has any proof as to the purpose or perspective of either the writer of the mores of the time. We simply were not here. We are simply not that individual. How many times today have you said That's Not What I Meant? In the past year? Or conversely Gee I Didn't Understand it That Way. So am I right in concluding facts based on perception. Theory anyone? Have a nice day.

Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2012
Article comment by: Linda Athens

Bob Moore:

On your continuing rant that David Barton presents false material in spite of the fact he has the largest collection of original letters, etc from our Founding era and actual Founders anywhere, the fact you have read NOTHING actually by him but simply quote no nothing liberals who hate him, you might find this story interesting.

A notable ACLU attorney decided he would disprove Barton's thesis that the Founding Fathers were largely Christian.

He took Bartons Original Intent book and undertook a project to expose what he considered to be it's falsehoods, went back and checked Barton's quotes against the original sources cited in the book.

At the end of it all, he concluded Barton had UNDERSTATED the faith of the Founders, that there was actually MUCH MORE evidence to support their Christian faith than even what Barton had written.

This ACLU attorney was so blown away by his discovery, he became a convert to Christianity and an eminent court of appeals judge...all because he took the time to look at original source material and find the truth for himself.

And there are many more that have had the same happen to them, using original source material. You should try it sometime rather than constantly reading liars such as Rob Boston.


Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2012
Article comment by: Em Lee

@Nice Surprise

Well first of all we do not as a general rule go door to door. And since we worship on The Sabbath of our Creator, I am in church Saturday (Sabbath) mornings. If we do go to peoples houses its usually to bring them food. You really seem to have a brusque attitude, so I will wish you well and pray that God will shall be done in your life.


Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012
Article comment by: We The People{me} Thinking

Romans14:22


Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012
Article comment by: Dr. GS Hurd

@PL,

The origin of life is logically independent from evolutionary theory which addressed the diversity of life as we see it today. Study of the origin of life was called "absurd" by Darwin in 1861. But we do study this today.

For a recent book that most people could read, see Prof. David W. Deamer, 2011 “First Life: Discovering the Connections between Stars, Cells, and How Life Began"

You could take a short-cut, and look at my "A short outline of the origin of life." at my Stones and Bones blog.


Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012
Article comment by: Dr. GS Hurd

Reading Jefferson is a pleasure. He likes to parade his knowledge a bit. In the April 11, 1823 letter to John Adams, he switches between English, French, Latin, and Greek. I am rusty in 3 out of the 4. The original as Photostats are on-line: http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.mss/mtj.mtjbib024623

The context of Jefferson's quoted just used by Ms. Athens was that Adams earlier wished Jefferson should remain in good health until he became a Calvinist. Jefferson replied that that "would make me immortal."

I did find, to my surprise, that the small portion of the letter quoted by Ms. Athens was mostly accurate. My sense of Jefferson as a deist has slightly moved up. In the same letter, he preceded that with, "indeed I think that every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma." On the third page of the letter, Jefferson wrote, "The truth is that the greatest enemies of the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the proponents of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy incomprehensible without any foundation in his genuine words." And concluding after equating the "mystical generation of Jesus" by virgin birth with the birth of Minerva from the skull of Jupiter, "but we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human error."

Read the original for yourself, Ms. Athens, not from the religious-right bloviations you favor. Isn't that your advice to others?
(269 words)


Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012
Article comment by: Linda Athens

Sorry Leon:

Evolution has no scientific basis. It might be of interest to you to know that Darwin was hardly the first to come along with this theory. It has been around for at least six centuries before Christ, was well understood by our own Founders, most of whom wrote on it.

I quote Thomas Jefferson here simply because he is traditionally known as the least religious (and yet 1000% more religious than most people of today). Ever notice how smart the Founders were.


Thomas Jefferson:
"When we take a view of the universe in its parts, general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces the structure of our earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters, and atmosphere animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles insects, mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth the mineral substances, their generation and uses – it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is, in all this, design, cause, and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a Fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their Preserver and Regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regeneration into new and other forms. We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power, to maintain the universe in its course and order.

The Writings of Thomas Jefferson/Andrew A Lipscomb, The T J Memorial Assn 1904, Vol XV, pp 426-427, pp Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823.


Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012
Article comment by: Nice Surprise

@ Em Lee

"I do not have the answers you are looking for."

Exactly. I know where the places of worship are in town. However, I do not need nor want bible thumping fanatics knocking on my door Monday thru Saturday preaching or asking me about my beliefs. I'm sure you people know how to read so please observe the "Private Property" and "No Trespassing" signs. They are not there to invite you nor to be ignored. I hate slamming my door shut on nice people at 8 a.m. on a Saturday morning.


Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

Ms Athens

“Someday you should try reading the original documents and words rather than someone else's interpretation of what the Founders said, did or meant.”

Are you referring to the “original documents” as released by self professed liar and charlatan David Barton that you quote here regularly?

“Mr. Hurd is completely and totally wrong. I will get around to straightening him out.”

No, Dr Hurd is not incorrect and we will await your attempt to disprove what he has posted. BTW, please do not use Barton, Corsi or WND as sources. Thank you.

“Meanwhile, obama's very non-brilliant first lesbian Supreme Court Justice Sotomayor has made yet another non-brilliant ruling.”

Strictly your opinion on the decision and what do you use to support your claim that the Justice is a lesbian?

“Welcome to the new America where you are forced to give morning after pills to young girls - totally against your own religion and the First Amendment.”

Uhh first Amendment? Hmm. And no one is forcing anyone to give birth control pills to anyone, only the access to birth control for those who wish to use it.

“Isn't it interesting that our first homosexual POTUS nominated the first lesbian Justice?”

Again totally false information. What is it with your obsession with homosexuality and your consistent use of it for attacking someone you disagree with?

“Meanwhile, a really good potential justice, Robert Bork just died. He was truly brilliant.”

Yeah his 1984 position that American Cyanamid had the right to force its female employees to be sterilized or lose their jobs was indeed brilliant. Along with his position that the Constitution does not contain a “right to privacy” prove Bork was an idiot.

w/c289


Posted: Friday, December 28, 2012
Article comment by: pl .....

@Dr. Hurd....interesting quote from feeble old Einstein at the time....http://www.neatorama.com/2007/03/26/10-strange-facts-about-einstein/ has a very nice photograph by Albert Sasse, taken three years BEFORE your quote, which readers here might enjoy. Taken together with the various quirks listed at that website and other materiel gained from research on the man (one of his wives had to pin instructions on Einstein's clothing that would help others make sure he made it home intact) and considering that Einstein himself refuted some of his own research and theories.......well, we're all entitled to our opinions, aren't we? But I really haven't heard anything out of Einstein to explain the incredible leap from inanimate to animate. Did you happen to have a sane explanation laying around anywhere?

Posted: Thursday, December 27, 2012
Article comment by: Linda Athens

Anson's Nephew:

Someday you should try reading the original documents and words rather than someone else's interpretation of what the Founders said, did or meant. It could cure you of all your false beliefs about our Founding. Mr. Hurd is completely and totally wrong. I will get around to straightening him out.

Meanwhile, obama's very non-brilliant first lesbian Supreme Court Justice Sotomayor has made yet another non-brilliant ruling.

This time against the Christian Green family who owns Hobby Lobby. Their religious conscience will not allow them to supply abortifacients in the health insurance obama is forcing down their throats.

Being a small part of obamacare, she could have set it aside but she did not. Instead, their other choice is to pay fines of $1.2 million per day. Welcome to the new America where you are forced to give morning after pills to young girls - totally against your own religion and the First Amendment.

Oh, did I mention. When a muslim in prison said he was being violated by not having Ramadan dinners served to him....guess what. Thanks to her, he is now getting his Ramadan dinners.

Isn't it interesting that our first homosexual POTUS nominated the first lesbian Justice? Meanwhile, a really good potential justice, Robert Bork just died. He was truly brilliant. Sotomayer is a total left wing jerk who has a conflict of interest and NEVER should have been confirmed.



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