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1/8/2013 6:00:00 AM
Kingman Letter: Jefferson and religion

The belief that Thomas Jefferson was a deist who founded the University of Virginia as a secular institution devoid of Christianity, clergy and Christian professors is patently false. The first error is repeating today's academic writers who, rather than using original source material, quote each other's false statements. Jefferson's own words alone dispel this academic malpractice.

America's universities contained three similarities, all founded on one particular denomination, president and clergymen the same. Illustrative is Harvard, 1636, Congregationalist; William and Mary, 1692, Yale, 1791, Anglican; Princeton, 1773, Presbyterian; and College of Rhode Island (Brown), 1764, Baptist.

Jefferson and his board founded the University of Virginia as a trans-denominational school, causing modern critics to wrongly believe it was secular. Thirty years prior, the Anglican Church alone was legally acknowledged in Virginia, so Jefferson penned the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, putting all churches on equal footing. It was on this he founded the U of VA, saying, "In conformity with the principles of our Constitution which places all sects on equal footing...we have proposed no Professor of Divinity."

Presbyterian Clergyman Samuel Knox, who penned similar beliefs, was selected as first faculty member - all others being of various denominations with none deists or Unitarians. Fees were waived for students studying for Gospel ministry - a preferential treatment.

Jefferson personally directed "teaching the proofs of the being of God, Creator, Preserver and Supreme Ruler of the Universe ... author of all morality ... and the laws and obligations these infer," also directing teaching of Biblical Hebrew, Greek and Latin so students could study the "earliest and most respected authorities on the Christian Faith." The library was stocked with Christianity's greatest writings and the Rotunda was designated for religious services students were expected to attend.

Jefferson's words: "provision is made for giving instruction in ... the earliest and most respected authorities of the faith of every denomination ... developing those moral obligations in which all sects agree."

So common became the trans-denominational approach, de Tocqueville wrote, "The sects existing in the U.S. are innumerable ... within the great unity of Christianity."

Linda Athens

Kingman




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Reader Comments

Posted: Sunday, January 27, 2013
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

Ms Athens

“I have not only answered but debunked your errors.”

There were no errors in my posts, only factual information taken from such sources as website for the University of Virginia and David Barton’s own website where he admits to lying with made-up quotes and false history to mislead the intellectually challenged.

“I completely proved the U of VA was founded as NOT a secular university …”

And yet the University states, “IT WAS THE FIRST NONSECTARIAN UNIVERSITY IN THE UNITED STATES.” However, I did previously post that you would deny the university actually making that statement on their website.

“You simply aren't reading my posts. Your loss.”

Actually I always read every word of your posts – usually with incredulity - and my only loss is that of time as I debunk the nonsense.



Posted: Saturday, January 26, 2013
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

Ms Athens

“I have not only answered but debunked your errors.”

There were no errors in my posts, only factual information taken from such sources as website for the University of Virginia and David Barton’s own website where he admits to lying with made-up quotes and false history to mislead the intellectually challenged.

“I completely proved the U of VA was founded as NOT a secular university …”

And yet the University states, “IT WAS THE FIRST NONSECTARIAN UNIVERSITY IN THE UNITED STATES.” However, I did previously post that you would deny the university actually making that statement on their website.

“You simply aren't reading my posts. Your loss.”

Actually I always read every word of your post – usually with incredulity - and my loss is that of time as I debunk the nonsense.



Posted: Saturday, January 26, 2013
Article comment by: Dr. GS Hurd

You can read any of the official documents, letters, or published texts of Thomas Jefferson to learn that David Barton is a liar and a fraud. Unfortunately, you would also need to read David Barton's lies to discover that he had lied. An alternative is to watch this YouTube series by Chris Rodda. Some of the editing is coarse, but the content is excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqMIOc7afZ0&list=PL5CFC7050BA485613


Posted: Thursday, January 24, 2013
Article comment by: Linda Athens

BM:

I have not only answered but debunked your errors. Perhaps you should re-read all my posts a little closer? And used original source documents, even gave a You Tube address showing one.

You act as if I have said nothing. I completely proved the U of VA was founded as NOT a secular university at all but one that welcomed all denominations and their seminaries right on their campus, provided the rotunda for church services, expected students to attend, had chaplains for each denominatiion, pushed ancient Christian readings, gave free tuition to those going into ministry. Sound secular to you? One of your ill informed sources stated they hunted out deists to hire. No deists or Unitarians worked as teachers, all were various denominations....all Christian.

Jefferson provided government paid for Bibles for the Indians and worked, not once, but for many years to convert Indians to Christianity, was a subscriber of the Thompson Bible in America and not only it but numerous others that were printed in the US for the first time.

The lying sources you have used are easy to debunk. When you know the truth as I do, you easily see what they have done. Taken one sentence out of context in long discourses and other tricks to hide the truth.

You simply aren't reading my posts. Your loss.


Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2013
Article comment by: Dr. GS Hurd

"In discussing questions of this kind two rules are to be observed, as Augustine teaches. The first is, to hold to the truth of Scripture without wavering. The second is that since Holy Scripture can be explained in a multiplicity of senses, one should adhere to a particular explanation only in such measure as to be ready to abandon it if it be proved with certainty to be false, lest Holy Scripture be exposed to the ridicule of unbelievers, and obstacles be placed to their believing." - Thomas Aquinas, c.a. 1225 - 1274, Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, Q68. Art 1. (1273).

Ms. Athens clearly has brought on " the ridicule of unbelievers, and obstacles be placed to their believing" by her increasingly irrational screeds. An actual Christian would be concerned.


Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2013
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

Ms Athens
“Absolutely pathetic., The U of V was founded as Christian from start to finish.”

From the Universty of Virginia website –
“Thomas Jefferson founded the University of Virginia in 1819. He wished the publicly-supported school to have a national character and stature. Jefferson envisioned a new kind of university, one dedicated to educating leaders in practical affairs and public service rather than for professions in the classroom and pulpit exclusively. IT WAS THE FIRST NONSECTARIAN UNIVERSITY IN THE UNITED STATES and the first to use the elective course system.

“The University opened for classes in 1825 with a faculty of eight and a student body numbering sixty-eight. Jefferson took great pains to recruit the most highly qualified faculty, five of whom were found in England and three in the United States. Instruction was offered in ancient languages, modern languages, mathematics, moral philosophy, natural philosophy, chemistry, law, and medicine.”

I suppose you will now claim that the U of V is lying as well?


Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2013
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

Ms Athens

Throughout this thread you have called me a liar, a coward, an atheist and a moron and demanded that I provide proof that David Barton is a liar and a charlatan. I (and others) have posted information directly from Barton’s website where he admits to lying and advising people to not use his made up quotes. And you have never addressed the fact that Baron admits to lying in his self-published screeds on his own website.

I have risen to every challenge you demanded and each time you come back with quotes and cut-and-paste nonsense directly from Barton – who we know to be a self-admitted liar. You claim to “debunk” empirical evidence provided showing where Barton’s information is just flat out wrong by using Barton’s words to defend Barton’s incorrect data.

No matter how much you favor and post Barton’s trash it is incorrect and always will be incorrect.


Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2013
Article comment by: anonymous anonymous

Wow Thomas Jefferson debate was he or was he not, guess it matters to some folks but to me absolutely no interest one way or the other! Then the conversation goes onto Obama by our local birthers, then his wifes bangs, am glad god made me male some women can be truly catty with their gossup and dislike of other women for unknown reasons! I think if Obama likes his wifes bangs it really does not matter who does not like them! Its going to be a long 4 years for the Obama haters, birthers, secessionists who will be whining, crying, terrified for the next 4 years doomsday is coming!

Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2013
Article comment by: Linda Athens

>>>Barton references the inclusion of Matthew 12:10-12 as proof that Jefferson intended to include a suggestion of miracles. ...,...Barton omits the fact that Jefferson surgically removed the miracle verse from the passage.<< NOT TRUE!!!

This gets complicated. Will try to condense it. Jefferson made two small books. Of a handful of professors who were trying to prove Jefferson was something he was not, the last one went thru the two cut out Bibles (yes, Jefferson saved them) and pieced together what all verses Jefferson had cut out of the two and pieced together into one book.

That prof personally didn't believe Jefferson believed Jesus performed miracles so he simply left them out of his book and made a footnote noting that. He was trying to prove Jefferson picked and chose the parts of Christianity he wanted to believe. He did not in fact, at least for his first 70 years of life. And he did indeed include the miracles in his book.

Jefferson put together two books of Jesus' words. One was called The Life and Morals of Jesus Christ. That one listed all the moral things Jesus did and said (red letter words) and for fifty years, was given to every Congressman as they came into office to show them how to live a moral life.

The other book had the words/storys of Jesus from Mathew, Mark, Luke, John and were condensed into a small book and it is that one that was given to missionaries to convert the Indians. That one included everything Jesus did including miracles which Jefferson thought would be an easier way to reach the Indians w/the message of Jesus.

Catholic priests used the book, led many to Catholicism w/Jefferson providing them a govt funded church. Another lie debunked.


Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013
Article comment by: Dr. GS Hurd

It looked like so much fun finding lies in David Barton's lame screeds that I bought two so I could play too. "Setting the Record Straight: American History in Black and White" and "Separation of Church & State: What the Founders Meant."

Of course, I bought used copies. I never willingly give royalties to nitwit hacks.


Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013
Article comment by: Linda Athens

An interesting actual fact.

Chris Rodda has a book out called Debunking the Jefferson Lies #2 - Jefferson Founded a Secular University and I have completely debunked the fact the University of Virginia was founded as a secular university. She even uses a cover almost exactly like Barton's book cover. What a fraud.

And yet, BM on here still uses her as one of his information sources.

Absolutely pathetic., The U of V was founded as Christian from start to finish.


Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013
Article comment by: Linda Athens

Two of Barton's critics, Professor Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter. The first, a psychology prof at Grove College writing on sexual orientation and identity, the other political science. There is no such thing as sexual orientation incidentally. It's called sin. My source, The Holy Bible written by God, Romans Ch 1.

These two "critique" Barton and other religious conservatives, are not so much into Barton's writings historical content but out to disprove American exceptionalism which they think they have proven is NOT a good thing since Barton attributes it to our God given inalienable rights.

Dismissing Barton's 100,000 original source documents (they have never seen them), they dismiss old newspaper articles too which every genuine historian knows often have great significance.

For instance, the Federalist Papers, indispensable, first appeared as newspaper articles. Nowhere but in the newspaper was Geo Washington's bending over to kiss the Bible reported. Required, but only there reported.

In Barton's huge collection is the John Thompson Bible of 1798 which documents JEFFERSONS ROLE IN HELPING PRINT THAT BIBLE, a groundbreaking edition that was massive, two volume folio - the largest Bible ever published here at that time also America's first hot-pressed Bible.

Jefferson subscribed to the printing, meaning at the end of Volume II, 1272 people who subscribed to this massive Bible were listed. The two investors were the two printers. The rest were subscribers, in other words, they agreed with this project and wanted their name and their finances associated with it. Each received a first printing. The two professors dismiss this as insignificant and irrelevant. It was not.

Being a subscriber tells us what that person believes and supports. If printers happened to run out of money, subscribers stepped in with funding making them also investors.

Another lie debunked.


Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013
Article comment by: Linda Athens

The so called Jefferson Bible:

Among other sources, David Barton himself at www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3CXHb

There is no such thing as The Jefferson Bible.
The book the elitists refer to as The Jefferson Bible with miracles, etc left out as if he were a heretic couldn't be further from the truth.

Barton will show an actual copy of the book on a You Tube interview which Jefferson called "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth".

He took all the actual words of Jesus (the red words we call them) and put them altogether, undoubtedly in the order in which they came in the NT so as to have a missionary tool with which to evangelize the Indians in America.

What better way to tell the Indians of Jesus than to give them an entire book of Jesus' exact words.

This is the so oft wrongly referred to Jefferson Bible of which the atheists and elitist professors have had a field day with for so long. All lies. And for a so called "deist" by them, Jefferson certainly went to a LOT OF TROUBLE to not only be a Christian but to convert others also.

He also was a Founder of the Virginia Bible Society. More on this and founder of something else will be dubunked on here soon.


Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013
Article comment by: Linda Athens

Word limit permitting, I will debunk two lies with one stone here.

You posted - >>LIE – Barton said, “As noted historian George Marsden affirmed, ‘It is not much of an exaggeration to say that outside of New England, the Scots were the educators of eighteenth-century America.’”
FACT – Marsden’s actual quote is, “So extensive was the PRESBYTERIAN educational program that is not much of an exaggeration to say that, outside of New England, the Scots were the educators of eighteenth century America.” Of course Presbyterians were the wrong group for Barton’s nonsense so he simply left them out<<

Please note the fourth paragraph in my original Letter to the Editor above. You say Presbyterians were the wrong group for Barton's nonsense so he simply left them out?

Barton wrote many things about Presbyterians including about Presbyterian Samuel Knox above who was asked by Jefferson to be the first teacher at his new U of VA. There was a mixup and Knox had to decline but he was the first asked.

There is no difference in the two quotes. You are splitting hairs but this is common by the elitist liars you copy/paste.

On to Knox and the next lie debunked.





Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013
Article comment by: Linda Athens

Lie #2 debunked.

Jefferson and the seal:

On the same day the Congress approved the Declaration, it appointed John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin to draft a seal to characterize the spirit of the new nation.

Franklin proposed: Moses lifting up his wand, dividing the Red Sea, and Pharoah in his chariot overwhelmed with the waters and this motto: Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

Jefferson proposed: The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and pillar of fire by night.

SOURCE: The third person charged with the seal, John Adams. Sourced in Original Intent, the Courts, the Constitution and Religion. John Adams, Letters, Vol I, p 152, to Abigail Adams on August 14, 1776.

(Adams wrote a myriad of very detailed letters to his wife Abigail. This is one. As the eyewitness, I believe him. This is from the original letter).

You might want to bone up on who the two Germanic brothers who went to England really are. And please note, while you lefties try to disprove Christianity as our Founding, please take NOTE here what they wanted to put on our National Seal. In this case, both OT stories of coming OUT of bondage in Egypt to the freedom of the promised land. The pilgrims believed, like the Jews in Egypt led to the promised land, so were they led from England to America.


Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

Ms Athens

“And, interesting fact. All the people claiming The Jefferson Lies has lies in it. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, NOT ONE SINGLE ACCUSER HAS COME OUT WITH EVEN ONE SINGLE LIE IN THE BOOK. How do you square that BM?”

I guess I can “square that” by posting just two of the many lies from the book.

LIE - Barton claims that Jefferson and the other founders were taught Scottish Common Sense philosophy when they were students.
FACT - The Scottish Common Sense philosophy didn’t even exist at the time Jefferson and virtually all of the other founders were students

LIE – Barton said, “As noted historian George Marsden affirmed, ‘It is not much of an exaggeration to say that outside of New England, the Scots were the educators of eighteenth-century America.’”
FACT – Marsden’s actual quote is, “So extensive was the PRESBYTERIAN educational program that is not much of an exaggeration to say that, outside of New England, the Scots were the educators of eighteenth century America.” Of course Presbyterians were the wrong group for Barton’s nonsense so he simply left them out.

“They can't stand it that he is a master at our Founding and THEY ARE NOT!!
He can prove it all. They know it. They are keeping mum with their accusations. COWARDS!!”

So why did Barton admit on his own website that he lied in his numerous books by making up quotes and history? He is the one claiming to be a liar, the rest of us simply refer to his own words.

Constantly defending a man who has admitted to lying in his published works shows an unwillingness to deal with the actual facts and truths that Barton is a lying charlatan whose only goal is to separate the intellectually challenged from their money.

w


Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013
Article comment by: pl .....

http://www.upa.pdx.edu/IMS/currentprojects/TAHV3/Content/PDFs/Robert_E._Lee.pdf - here is Robert E. Lee's letter, written December 27th 1856 (scroll down this page until you see it). I think it's fair commentary to suggest that an outspoken religious figure, leading tours of the nation's capitol wearing a representation of the Confederate battle flag, is displaying some affinity for - or commemoration of - the above racial views.

Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013
Article comment by: pl .....

In one video showing David Barton leading a group through the Capitol, he's wearing a long-sleeved shirt with a Confederate battle flag-design wrapped around his right arm. Could be affinity with Robert E. Lee, who in one breath could speak of "Our Redeemer" and the blacks' eventual place, one day from their "necessary and painful humiliation of the present" to become Christians. Lee spelled out the time frame with reference to a Bible verse which says "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years". I'll bet even a black person could figure that one out. You can locate Lee's letter online, as one he wrote to President Franklin Pierce. There are finer and saner men of Biblical belief around than David Barton.

Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

Ms Athens

“BM: Let's hear ONE LIE from The Jefferson Lies. Can you come up with even ONE LIE David is accused about?”

Okay, here you go -

Barton goes on a tirade about Jefferson signing documents that contain the words “In the year of our Lord Christ” as evidence of Jefferson’s religiosity when the term was placed there according to treaty and pre-printed (not hand-written) on the document.

Barton also claims that Jefferson wanted a Biblical story on the National Seal when in fact Jefferson wanted a biblical story on one side and a Pagan story on the other - the Saxon Pagan leaders Hengist and Horsa.

Barton outright lied about Jefferson founding the Virginia Bible Society (and doesn't prove it, just says it is so).

Barton also lied about Jefferson financing the first hot-pressed bible when in fact he simply subscribed to it as did hundreds of other.

Barton has claimed Jefferson put the statements of Christ in more or less chronological order. However there is empirical evidence of Jefferson's outright hostility toward orthodox Christianity: he denied the deity, Virgin Birth, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ by taking scissors to the pages of Scripture which promoted these doctrines.

Barton references the inclusion of Matthew 12:10-12 as proof that Jefferson intended to include a suggestion of miracles. An eximination of Jefferson's Bible includes Matthew 12:10-12 AND 14-15. Note Jefferson cuts out verse 13 which is the verse describing the actual miracle "Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth and it was restored whole, like as the other." Barton omits the fact that Jefferson surgically removed the miracle verse from the passage.


Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013
Article comment by: V Stokes

"Here is what even your beloved Wikipedia says about Barton. I QUOTE:......"

How odd I don't find the listed quote or even some of the words used in the Wiki article anywhere.

Ohhhhh wait, there it is...at the Wallbuilders site in his biography from the external link at the bottom....wonder who wrote that?

Most of the words I find at the Wiki article are things like "embarrassing factual errors, suspiciously selective quotes, and highly misleading claims", "flawed", and "biased amateur".

As to all the claims about him...well, I'm sure many are true. Jim and Tammy Faye Baker and Jerry Swaggart were probably on some of those lists in there time. Believers all thought they were just wonderful till they were caught at their crimes and deceit.


Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

“Hard to fit them all in with the word limitation. Do you have those credentials for your woman yet?”

My woman? What does that mean? My sources for Barton being a liar come from his own website where he admitted to lying in his publications.

As to awards – do they really mean anything? Particularly if they are handed out by a totally partisan group (either right or left). I am reminded of Lil Newtie Gingrich giving awards to strip clubs as “great Americans” in exchange for $5,000. I wonder how much Barton has laid out to pad his resume?

There are some awards I greatly respect – The Pulitzer, The Nobel, the Newberry to name just three. But none of the ones you mention rise to the level of being anything other than partisan nonsense.

As to Who’s Who. ANYONE can be listed in the various Who’s Who by paying the fee. I have been asked for nearly 20 years to lay out cash to be listed in the “Who’s Who of Author’s and Writers” and understanding that it is a scam have refused every time.

Once again, Barton is a charlatan who has admitted in his own words to lying in his books and advising people to NEVER rely on his quotes.


Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

“Can we ask the KDM admins to close this comment thread due to unreasonable absurdity?”

Believe me nothing would please me more and soon this thread will roll off the top list and be gone. But until then I will continue to correct Ms Athens and her defense of the known charlatan David Barton who has admitted to lying in his books.


Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

Ms Athens

“Can you come up with even ONE LIE David is accused about? I won't hold my breath.”

I posted a pair and we will wait and see if they appear. If they do not I will post them again.

Meanwhile you can read through the following taken from Barton’s website where he states – parenthetically - that he lied in his various books.

“’Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extend, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian.’ The Supreme Court in Holy Trinity (false)”

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison (false)

I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens. --Thomas Jefferson (questionable)

America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.--Alexis de Toqueville, ‘Democracy in America’ (false, definitely not in the book).”

So from the charlatans own web site there is proof that he lied. Many of those quotations Barton admits are groundless. Barton so loved one quote supposedly uttered by Benjamin Franklin that it was included in a biographical sketch WallBuilders (owned by Barton) sells, saying it "fully sums up what David believes and teaches." Barton now admits the quote is "false" and recommends people not use it.

Barton, charlatan and liar.

w/c294


Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013
Article comment by: Anson's Nephew

“I heard obama say ‘So help me God’ today while taking the oath.”

What is curious is that Justice Roberts actually violated The Constitution by adding the words to the oath.

“Imagine that - doing something just like our first POTUS.”

Empirical evidence will always dispute your asserting that Washington added “So help me God” to his oath of office. And of course the four words are not required nor do they appear in the Constitution.


Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013
Article comment by: Linda Athens

Doing research:

Your post is indicative of what is wrong with America?

Do you really want our true founding lost - snuffed out by liberals?



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